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1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:47:49am

I'm surprised one she's still alive and two that she's as sharp as she is. What I always want to point out to Holocaust deniers is that the Nazis that survived never denied what happened, they rather tried to justify it or shift the blame.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:49:05am

re: #1 HappyWarrior

I'm surprised one she's still alive and two that she's as sharp as she is. What I always want to point out to Holocaust deniers is that the Nazis that survived never denied what happened, they rather tried to justify it or shift the blame.

This is not that case as she claims she didn't know anything.

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:50:22am

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

This is not that case as she claims she didn't know anything.

Which, BTW, was a stance typical of lots of the Nazis, regardless of their position.

4 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 12:34:02pm

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

Which, BTW, was a stance typical of lots of the Nazis, regardless of their position.

"I know NOTHING!"

/Sgt. Schultz, Hogan's Heroes

5 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:03:37pm

Unfortunately, Goebbel's work regarding advertising, peer pressure, and psychological manipulation lives on.

6 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:12:59pm

Everybody should watch the movie Downfall, told from the perspective of the personal secretary to Hitler (She was 22 at the time).

The scene where Maria Goebbels murders her drugged children is horrific beyond belief. I had to turn it off and go somewhere to cry. Absolutely monstrous.

7 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 2:27:41pm

re: #6 celticdragon

Everybody should watch the movie Downfall, told from the perspective of the personal secretary to Hitler (She was 22 at the time).

The scene where Maria Goebbels murders her drugged children is horrific beyond belief. I had to turn it off and go somewhere to cry. Absolutely monstrous.

Very good movie. Second the recommend.

8 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 2:36:52pm

re: #6 celticdragon

There are plenty of shows about this topic on cable. One show had significant footage of someone who was in Hitler Youth, interviews with Hitlers secretary, Hitler's childhood friends--and I can't recall the name. But they seem to show it every other week.

9 wee fury  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:04:45pm

Pomsel.
Clueless as a bat during WWII.
Clueless as a bat now.

10 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:46:05pm

re: #9 wee fury

I hear what you're saying, but I wouldn't take that approach. There's a very profound question that has to be answered here, before we 'teach the lessons of the Holocaust', which is--what happened to these people?

Hitler was Hitler, nothing happened to him. The same could be said about Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, etc. They were who they were.

But what about the people who were 'normal'? How did they end up as complicit in this terrible crime? How did they choose to turn the other way, or fall back on the idea of respecting authority, or whatever? How did they decide to boycott Jewish businesses, adopt double standards of morality? How did the Goebbel's project manage to reprogram their minds and hearts?

I mean, it's happening again before our very eyes, and once again, no one notices anything.

11 wee fury  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 6:55:55pm

re: #10 Bob Levin

I don't think there can be, or ever will be, answers to your questions.
My only conclusion is that Evil exists.

12 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 7:09:16pm

re: #11 wee fury

But is evil invulnerable?

13 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:53:31pm

re: #12 Bob Levin

Not invulnerable, but incredibly resilient. We must be ever on alert and ever ready to rise to the call of battle so that good shall triumph.

14 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 10:12:51pm

re: #13 sliv_the_eli

No doubt. It takes more than vigilance. We have to act like biologists trying to eradicate a contagion. And that takes questions, hard questions--that require courage, given the possible answers, and patience.

I like the science metaphor much more than the Casablanca metaphor, although l do love Casablanca.

I posted something earlier today, an opinion piece in which a rabbi says that Jewish education is going in the wrong direction. I agree with that, it's a first step. That kind of intensive Torah study leads to rabbi/lawyers, but we need some scientists in there too, studying evil. That's another aspect of the commandment to choose life (which, by the way, has nothing to do with the question of abortion, just in case the question would arise).

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 10:38:48pm

I've been pondering these big questions for a while now.

It all, it seems, boils down to the insidious and addictive nature of POWER.

Once someone thinks they are the most powerful force in their lives, it seems to go downhill from there. They lose perspective. If they are indeed in a position of power over others either as a Parent, Employer or Government Leader, abuse seems to follow.

I don't think a belief in G-d is necessary, although it can be helpful as our society has a long history that reinforces the belief. Many find that Nature or the Universe is more powerful than they themselves.

16 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 1, 2011 12:57:16pm

re: #15 ggt

That's a reasonable hypothesis. People have looked at contemporary society and have seen that, but they haven't called it Power. The most famous book on this subject is The Culture of Narcissism.

I think that Jews have to ask the questions I raised in #10, because for many Germans, the evil manifest in, oh, let's say 1933, was dormant in 1930, certainly dormant in 1922. And since we've taken on the task of teaching about the Holocaust, we might as well do a good job of this. The fact that the same dynamics are up and about and spitting fire today, and again everyone looks the other way--tells me that we haven't done a very good job.

And that's the gist of my complaint regarding Jewish institutions, that they've pretty well ignored their mission. And if we turn our backs as this evil rearms, which is what has happened, how can we expect others to stare it straight on?


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